• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Reasons for Barbel population decline

Graham Elliott

Senior Member & Supporter
There are some fantastic responses on the Survey thread.

I have a theory...shoot it down!



Now. My own personal theory.

Any notable decline, apart from natural events such as flooding, poisoning will have a time lag before it becomes evident.

One of the key factors in most observations are the lack of year classes that are coming through to re-establish populations. Aligned with this is the fact that barbel being caught are now reaching unprecedented weights. some rivers appear to have more double figure fish than smaller ones. Age will see their decline.


So.

Here's my theory.


In any breeding for profit one of the key facts is that to gain maximun weight it is normal for the animals to be de sexed. an example is bred Turkeys and capons. there are many others.

It is common practice for example for cats to be "done" to avoid fighting. This encourages weight growth at the same time.


The initial stocks of pellets that were used for fishing all came directly from the fish farming industry. In fact they were the only ones that were available for a number of years. They supplied companies like Hinders for the Elips product.

It was some years later that "fish friendly" baits were being produced by bait manufacturers. I have no idea if the same constituents are being used in their production but perhaps less oil content.

Now, if you ran a fish farm. If you wanted the fish to gain maximum weight, to prevent spawning and agressive behaviour, what would you seek to be added to your feed products? Possibly inadvertantly?

The time lags are correct, the current outcomes are correct, and if true would lead to the exact scenario we are experiencing. I would put this as potentially the greatest cause of the decline of barbel in our rivers......


Graham
 
Very interesting take on things Graham. But I'm not sure that the Barbels diet would have enough of the oestrogenic pellet for it to have an effect? Farmed fish will be 100% reliant on it so the effects would be more significant. It could be a factor though.

As I'm sure most will know, oestrogen in the water supply has long been to blame for disrupting male hormones in fish.

Hormone disruption coupled with silted spawning beds and sterile food-less rivers. No wonder we have a problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Would most barbel anglers agree that the Trent and Wye and healthy barbel fisheries?

The EA, Barbel society and the Angling Trust should use these rivers as a benchmark to study any potential decline in fish stocks on them in future.

Get some data on the quality of water, fish stocks, flow rates etc.... Do this now, whilst they are still considered good fisheries, get in there before the stable door bolts so to speak.

Then, if these rivers experience the same decline in barbel numbers that other previously booming barbel rivers have done, there will be a data set for comparison. And having a standard measure or benchmark for what the fishery used to be like means that nostalgic sepia tinted memories of how great a fishery venue A used to be will not skew perception.

What's that you say... time, money, manpower....
 
Yes, yes, yes Ash!! Also obtain data for rivers in severe decline and try to identify data points with significant variances to ascertain if a cause or causes can be identified. I realise this is massively simplistic statement because you also need sensitivity analysis to accommodate variables. But I would leave that to the scientists. They could have a field day.
 
The Environment Agency and Calverton are both public body's ?
So why not use The freedom of information act to ask the right questions ? and find out what they were up to ? With regards to there breeding policy with Barbel ?
 
Ash. some good points and yes the oestregen levels in water have had a part in turning fish asexual as proven by the EA's own research on River Loddon roach. However an ingested product with a growth hormone or addition causing female characteristics would be far more disruptive I assume.

Neither the re-emegence of the Trent as a prime barbel water and the newly established wye population of barbel (15 years?) would have had the pellet usage over the time lag period leading to the problems I allude to.

In fact that may be the prime reason they are currently still showing viable stocks and year classes. Currently. Your post confirms in my mind ther problem could even more likely be as described

Calverton feed. I don't know what they use/d, but in general terms the majority of ingredients in pellet historically come from the far east where controls on anti biotics and additives are limited very poorly in the main.

I believe that the fish stocks that Calverton produce are unable to be sex tested.

It's interesting that Marks comment about females or asexual fish (the larger fish) only being around. Hence no reproduction.

Recent reading

The triploidy process is usually used in conjunction
with a technique to induce all-female fish through sex
reversal. This involves feeding the male sex hormone,
testosterone, to young female brood fish, and using
their eventual sperm to produce later-maturing
female-only fish, allowing them to be reared for
longer without adversely affecting flesh quality.

Did the farmed fish feed we use have the same affect?

Graham
 
Joe.
I hope someone does ask the questions. I'm too old to follow up on most things.
we need a rabid youngster...

or a Barbel Group with enough interest and able to get genuine proven answers. Howver, I am saying the main culprit is us anglers for feeding the fish Fish Farming products. albeit unwittingly. The further worry is it may be continuing within the source of newly provided barbel stock .

Graham
 
The Environment Agency and Calverton are both public body's ?
So why not use The freedom of information act to ask the right questions ? and find out what they were up to ? With regards to there breeding policy with Barbel ?

Joe

Exactly as I mentioned in the other thread - someone needs to.
 
I am hoping the EA will pick up on this thread tomorrow. as advised.

Nothing in reply from Fishing media.

Graham
 
I think you may very well be right Grayham. Sadly, if that were true, it would leave us with a population of emasculated fish, which, if they ever did get the urge, would be faced with silted up gravel beds to foil most of their efforts, followed by a heady dose of mixed pollutants that would probably adversely affects the viability of many of the few eggs that they did produce. If any viable eggs were to be found, they and any hatching fry would then have a carpet of foreign crayfish to deal with. If any of those fry were to miraculously survive to hand size and beyond, they would have the excitement of playing hide and seek with the 'black plague', which all means there would be very few barbel left to feed the poor old otters.

Still, beggars can't be choosers, so once the otters had polished of the slow, fat old gay parents, they could munch their way through the handful of youngsters that had made it past the cormorant fodder stage....then all the other fish, then the endangered species like water voles, bittern, natterjack toads and so on...then if they ran out, no matter, there are still plenty of swans, ducks, geese...even chickens if their pens aren't secure. Then theres frogs, eels, grass snakes....they may even have a munch on a few crayfish if we are really lucky. You really can't beat being an apex predator can you? If one door closes, theres always another one to try. Yummy :D:D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
The Trent. Ladysmiths.

Up to (guess 10 years ago) Kennet.

But what feed for the fingerlings?

Thanks Graham . Now I will be honest I haven't read through both threads on this very interesting topic , so if I get it wrong forgive me . So if the lady barbel in the Trent , which I presume are netted and stripped are producing viable eggs then they clearly have not fallen victim to the hormone rich pellets , so if the theory is correct they cannot have come from Calverton and cannot be prone to oestrogen in the water or heavy metals or whatever it is that makes fish infertile , bisexual or as Dave puts it ' gay ' :D [ Don't forget Dave homosexuals of any species can still breed !] So the fecundity of the Trent fish , [ clearly the male barbel in said river aren't jaffas] would indicate that there is nothing in their diet or habitat that has an adverse effect on their ability to breed . Now call me daft but I bet there is a fair amount of oestrogen goes in to the Trent [ just look at the catchment area, lots of big urban areas , millions of gallons of sewage ] , the heavy metal residue must be significant given all the discharge that has gone in to that river in the past + all the pellets that the anglers sling in , how come they are apparently doing so well ?
 
Mike.
You do need to read through.

The main focus in my opinion needs to be on the pellets specifically supplied by the fish farming supplier industry. In the early days of pellets thats all that was available.
Ie elips salips etc. It was specifically used to fatten fish by de sexing them as one of the processes.

I believe the Trent as a re emerged barbel river did not have the same quantity of these in the main usage days.

The wye also as a new (10 years) established barbel river also.

One hopes the fish friendly baits available from bait manufacturers today dont have the same effect or just wait 10 years....
 
I thought I should have read more carefully , sorry . Anyway the gist is the pellets that the Calverton fish are fed on are making them infertile [ allegedly ] . The infertile fish are put in rivers by the EA , they don't breed and combined with all the other things going against them , the barbel population takes a sudden nose dive hence many report few barbel being around except big old fish . If this is true it is clearly very worrying , lets hope the FOI request proves successful , they have to reply by law unless they can give a valid reason not to . You mention a 'hope' that modern baits are more fish friendly , I reckon there is a fair chance that hope is forlorn , who is going to test the baits to see if they are or not , nobody ...
 
Mike. Some of the comments indicate concern about what is used at s commercial fish supplying firm.

I simply wondered if one would import from elsewhere food feed that had the same effect as earlier bait sources.

Mind you knowing from articles and from a pm from another bfw member that a quick heat treatment to the eggs would make them become tryploid ie asexual
It might be in my interest to keep the supply business on going.....


Nothing should be implied regarding any known suppliers or practices
 
Dave
Your posts are always interesting informative and great to read.

I always thought you would be great on the TV as a chat show host. However you obviously didn't eat enough hormone riddled fish as a child to fit into this niche market.

Graham
 
If the pellets were making the fish infertile then you would have the same problem on commercials with no Carp or Silver fish spawning and that is not the case, far from it.

Rivers have their ups and downs and at times you would think they were devoid of fish. Far from it, I know a stretch of river where if the conditions are not right, not matter how good an angler you think you are, the Barbel and Chub shoal up tight until they choose they spread out, you won't catch them its as simple as that.

A lot of canals and rivers are thriving with Silver fish and Carp, so some how doubt there's an issue with the quality of water.

You see big shoals of Roach come and go, big shoals of Chub come and go and big shoals of Bream come and go, shoals of Tench come and go and the same could be said about Barbel.
 
Tony.
Commercials restock as needs dictate. Funny how you rarely see fingerling carp on many of them.

I suspect the canal systems don't generally see the commercially produced products that we are talking about used in the same quantity as rivers. Not at the times they came into vogue for barbel

I accept cyclic variables will have an effect. But so many rivers?

Graham
 
Back
Top