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  #61  
Old 13-10-2017, 12:23
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Alex Gowney Alex Gowney is offline
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Interesting points Joe and certainly food for thought. I appreciate the difficulty in gaining hard evidence and I certainly wasn't referring to you personally as having an agenda as you clearly hold a balanced view. There are definitely aspects of shooting that can be improved but it's important both pro and anti shooting agendas are balanced, although that is seldom the case.
Chris Packham is rabidly anti shooting as can be expected when he describes us all as psycopaths
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  #62  
Old 13-10-2017, 14:34
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Joe Fletcher Joe Fletcher is offline
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Interesting reading about Scotland's disappearing raptor's ?

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...orious-twelfth

I see also the National trust are having a vote on whether to ban all hunting on there land ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rust-land.html
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  #63  
Old 13-10-2017, 16:08
Joe Winstanley Joe Winstanley is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Gowney View Post
Interesting points Joe and certainly food for thought. I appreciate the difficulty in gaining hard evidence and I certainly wasn't referring to you personally as having an agenda as you clearly hold a balanced view. There are definitely aspects of shooting that can be improved but it's important both pro and anti shooting agendas are balanced, although that is seldom the case.
Chris Packham is rabidly anti shooting as can be expected when he describes us all as psycopaths
Thank's Alex.

Yes those comments by Chris Packham were very unfortunate and sadly undermine his case about driven grouse shooting. The problem shooting has is it all to often seems to get lumped together by some. Some brilliant conservation work has been achieved by grey partridge shoots in the UK, conservation work has benefited a whole range of rare/declining farmland species not just grey partridge. It's a great shame when that gets tarred with the same brush as modern day commercial driven grouse shooting.
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  #64  
Old 13-10-2017, 16:23
Joe Winstanley Joe Winstanley is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Fletcher View Post
Interesting reading about Scotland's disappearing raptor's ?

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...orious-twelfth

I see also the National trust are having a vote on whether to ban all hunting on there land ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rust-land.html
There is a credible school of thought which theorises that Golden Eagle expansion into the uplands of Northern England is prevented because the grouse shooting estates of southern and eastern Scotland act as a 'firewall'.

Eagles fledging from the highlands and western isles looking to establish their own territories get drawn onto the grouse moors because the seeming abundance of grouse and to an extent mountain hares (although they are now being culled on many grouse moors) and think they have found the perfect place to settle.

Hence the Golden Eagle is now extinct in England, everyone believed that the last remaining male in Riggindale would eventually be joined by a mate coming down from Scotland, but after 12 years on his own he kicked the bucket. Quite sad really.
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  #65  
Old 13-10-2017, 23:52
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Alex Gowney Alex Gowney is offline
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The great shame really is that both pro and anti shooting factions can do a lot for wildlife of all species but the reality is that both camps generally put their opposition to each other before the welfare of the wildlife. Opponents of pheasant shoots seldom admit the good the habitat retained for pheasants does for many species, not least many endangered butterfly species. Their main gripe seems to be that people actually enjoy shooting rather than any particular concern for what's being shot. And maybe the shooters, and I am guilty of this myself, demand incontrovertible proof of any wrongdoing rather than accepting it does go on and dealing with it.
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  #66  
Old 14-10-2017, 00:32
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Anthony Pearson Anthony Pearson is offline
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Just an aside to this. Why are the restrictions on lead shot not applicable to moorland grouse shooting? Surely, the associated pollution will work its way into upland rivers and therefore impact on the flora and fauna along the course of such waterways?
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  #67  
Old 14-10-2017, 00:48
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Alex Gowney Alex Gowney is offline
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Just an aside to this. Why are the restrictions on lead shot not applicable to moorland grouse shooting? Surely, the associated pollution will work its way into upland rivers and therefore impact on the flora and fauna along the course of such waterways?
Good question. Scotland probably use logic more than England in that lead can't be used over wetlands. England's rules are you can't shoot wildfowl with lead. So if a duck comes over a partridge drive you can't shoot at it unless you have lead substitute cartridge in the chamber. Or you can quickly change it of course...
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  #68  
Old 14-10-2017, 09:15
Joe Winstanley Joe Winstanley is offline
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Just an aside to this. Why are the restrictions on lead shot not applicable to moorland grouse shooting? Surely, the associated pollution will work its way into upland rivers and therefore impact on the flora and fauna along the course of such waterways?
That's a very good question Anthony, there also an issue so far as drinking water in concerned.

The Lead Action Group recommended that last year that the use of lead shot be phased out full stop - the evidence for that recommendation was very strong in my opinion. Did you know an estimated 40,000 wildfowl a year still die from lead poisoning in the UK?

The outgoing Defra Minister Liz Truss had the opportunity to act and take up the recommendations of the LAG (which is what is was set for), but she caved into to pressure from the certain factions in the shooting industry, notably the Countryside Alliance.

The chair of the Lead Action Group, John Swift who for many years was the Director of BASC had this to say on another forum earlier this week:

Liz Truss, after long delay but somewhat hastily on the day she was being sacked and cleared her desk, took the narrow view (which was politically convenient for her) that our Lead Ammunition Group report "did not provide 'evidence of proof of causation' linking possible impacts of lead ammunition with sizes of bird population in England".....there is indeed good scientific evidence for population level impacts on waterfowl populations, which is unquestionably true; and on the basis of the precautionary principle I say it must be taken seriously. (It could well be that there are population impacts for raptors and scavenger species too. But that's another story.)..... Liz Truss was being blatantly political.
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