Is it me? Is it real?

[Alex Gowney]

I've only seen a badger twice in 50+ years and I spend a lot of time driving overnight. There must be tens of thousands of those nationwide. Foxes on the other hand, virtually on a daily basis. Guess if anything out there prefers to keep away from humans then it will.

This is the most relevant post so far I think. Badgers are extremely common and widespread, yet how many people ever see one? There is ample evidence of big cats and for those who read the link I posted earlier no less an authority than a police superintendent confirms their existence and also puts forward very good reasons for the lack of publicity/evidence. There will always be those who dismiss anything like this as rubbish but not everyone is wrong or lying, and not everyone has simply seen a large domestic cat.

 

[Terry Simner]

But there's SO much EVIDENCE of badger's existence. There's setts, tracks, carcasses, film stock etc etc.............but nowt on big cats. Maybe all these big cats that are believed in by some aren't actually 'wild' at all...but are actually the domestic pets of all the aliens that also roam (secretively) around our countryside.
Hmmmm, now then, that's a thought eh

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

The point is Terry ,it's not that people believe in them , they have SEEN them , sometimes up close and personal . As I said in an earlier post are these people mistaken , deluded , hallucinating or what ? I can hardly see the point of people making these things up , why would they ? As for your comparison to Badgers , there are tens of thousands of them , they are easy to locate and totally predictable in their behaviour

 

[David Gauntlett]

Great topic this . Admittedly we don't have the HD evidence that you require Neil , but what would your explanation be to the several people on the forum who have seen these creatures ? Were they hallucinating , dreaming ,or just plain mistaken ?

Hi Mike'

It is a great topic isn't it, great fun. Obviously, I don't really know whether these cats exist any more than anyone else does, but it makes for good tales to scare the grandchildren with, either way. To me, it's a bit like ghost stories. Are there such things as ghosts? Or are they flights of the imagination, dreamt up by folk while they are in that strange transitional stage before/after sleep? (whether or not alcohol assisted )

This whole thing seems to me to have much in common with our old friend the Loch Ness monster, in that there are many people (and some of those are considered reliable types) who will swear that they have seen that critter...and yet some pretty technologically advanced tests have failed to find anything to suggest that any such things exists, quite the opposite in fact. It also must be said that most of the photographic 'evidence' in support of 'Nessie' is blurred and inconclusive at best....and at worst has proved to be fraudulent.

The thing is, we humans love to have such romantic, mythical beasties to oooh and aaah about don't we? Virtually every civilisation that has ever existed has had such tales, and I am sure some of them were true. If you have seen the size of some of the freshwater eels in Australia for example, you can well imagine tales built around those!

However, these cat sightings are POSSIBLY more likely to have some basis in fact than most, in my opinion. I do understand Neil's scepticism, and there lies my personal problem. Like Neil, my head says no....but the romantic side of me, the part that loves that 'shiver in the night' thrill of such things...wants to believe .

And, as you say, it is difficult to imagine why some of the good, solid folk who swear to have seen these critters...would lie about it. Hmmmmmm.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Neil Smart]

The problem is there have been lots of sightings of 'big' cats but no corroborative evidence such as actual tracks or dead cats (one was found in Scotland a number of years ago but was part of two that had been released by someone heading to jail i think) never mind a 'clear' image - as i noted above a black animal from distance is very hard to define. According to the press there have been sightings nearly every where - including Sydenham, Barnet - somewhere in the region of 2000-4000 a year. Around three-quarters sighted are shiny black, likely to be a rare form of leopard - no one though has ever reported the more common spotted leopard. Isn't that odd? Cats would not be hard to find as they are territorial, have dens, leave hair behind, scratch and mark...yet all those who are out looking for them have never seen one or reported any hard evidence... it is a nice, romantic idea but so far this is all it seems to be.

Yes, always anecdotal evidence, I really don't understand why so many normal grounded folk on here, well almost all Support this crackpot notion.
As Paul states, it would be hard to miss them if they were roaming about and surviving. Of course the odd one or two would have had their short lived freedom, but they were merely pets I assume, and would not have the ability to survive any length of time.
There are some unique rare creatures that have adapted to our wild, but as yet not an apex predator that it's natural home is so unlike ours.

 

[Neil Smart]

The point is Terry ,it's not that people believe in them , they have SEEN them , sometimes up close and personal . As I said in an earlier post are these people mistaken , deluded , hallucinating or what ? I can hardly see the point of people making these things up , why would they ? As for your comparison to Badgers , there are tens of thousands of them , they are easy to locate and totally predictable in their behaviour

The brain can play some funny tricks, I am sure the people who saw something actually believe it was a big cat.

 

[Neil Smart]

Hi Mike'

It is a great topic isn't it, great fun. Obviously, I don't really know whether these cats exist any more than anyone else does, but it makes for good tales to scare the grandchildren with, either way. To me, it's a bit like ghost stories. Are there such things as ghosts? Or are they flights of the imagination, dreamt up by folk while they are in that strange transitional stage before/after sleep? (whether or not alcohol assisted )

This whole thing seems to me to have much in common with our old friend the Loch Ness monster, in that there are many people (and some of those are considered reliable types) who will swear that they have seen that critter...and yet some pretty technologically advanced tests have failed to find anything to suggest that any such things exists, quite the opposite in fact. It also must be said that most of the photographic 'evidence' in support of 'Nessie' is blurred and inconclusive at best....and at worst has proved to be fraudulent.

The thing is, we humans love to have such romantic, mythical beasties to oooh and aaah about don't we? Virtually every civilisation that has ever existed has had such tales, and I am sure some of them were true. If you have seen the size of some of the freshwater eels in Australia for example, you can well imagine tales built around those!

However, these cat sightings are POSSIBLY more likely to have some basis in fact than most, in my opinion. I do understand Neil's scepticism, and there lies my personal problem. Like Neil, my head says no....but the romantic side of me, the part that loves that 'shiver in the night' thrill of such things...wants to believe

Cheers, Dave.

That's good enough for me Dave, and should be for you dreamers too.

 

[Darren Hawen]

Mountain biking in the Chilterns near Henley in the 90's, a wallaby crossed my path in some woods at dusk. I wouldn't rule anything out lurking in our countryside..

 

[David Gauntlett]

Mountain biking in the Chilterns near Henley in the 90's, a wallaby crossed my path in some woods at dusk. I wouldn't rule anything out lurking in our countryside..

Ah but...was it a wallaby, or a wannabe wallaby Darren . Joking aside, wallaby are established and apparently thriving in the the UK. The difference is that, in common with the relatively common capybara, they are not predators. They are both quite large critters, with the capybara weighing close to 70 kilos...but neither of them are exactly renowned for sneaking up on people and savaging them to death. So, no mystique, no legends, in fact barely a mention. They both definitely need new agents

It is a fact that many varieties of alien critters have been released into the wild by irresponsible idiots, but most of the more exotic varieties cannot survive a British winter, and so suffer slow, painful deaths. Mind you, with global warming, who knows what the future holds

Come to that, I discovered that one particular mythical, fire breathing exotic definitely does exist many years back. If you had met my mother in law.....

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Comparing wild cats to ghosts is irrelevant Dave. We all know wild cats exist, the debate is whether they are roaming wild in the UK, not if they exist! There has been plenty of reliable evidence in the form of animal kills, pug marks, numerous sightings etc, but it's a fact that while some people "want" to believe, it also follows that some don't want to believe, whatever the evidence, unless they actually have the evidence itself right in front of their nose. An open mind on the subject would strongly suggest there are big cats wild in parts of the UK when all the evidence has been assessed. I'm not sure how you fake the sheep kills, pug marks, analysed droppings etc and neither do I think you can dismiss everyone as mistaken or a crank. That is taking "not wanting to believe" a bit far.

 

[Alex Gowney]

From the Mail Online 2010. Of course, the Inspector could be lying or the expert who analysed the droppings mistaken



I found Durham Police Inspector Eddie Ball, who had kept lynx of his own and knew big cats well. He had recognised clues on a sheep kill, and finding some nearby droppings, had sent them off to expert Dr Hans Kruuk, who confirmed they were from a puma or leopard.
I also learnt that in 2003, The Bio Sciences Lab, in Essex, confirmed a batch of hair sent in by Nigel Pound of Lincolnshire Police belonged to a member of the big cat family. A lab in the U.S. supported their conclusion.


Read more: Leopards and other big cats ARE on the loose in Britain - just don't tell a soul | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Terry Simner]

Hi Mike'

It is a great topic isn't it, great fun. Obviously, I don't really know whether these cats exist any more than anyone else does, but it makes for good tales to scare the grandchildren with, either way. To me, it's a bit like ghost stories. Are there such things as ghosts? Or are they flights of the imagination, dreamt up by folk while they are in that strange transitional stage before/after sleep? (whether or not alcohol assisted )

This whole thing seems to me to have much in common with our old friend the Loch Ness monster, in that there are many people (and some of those are considered reliable types) who will swear that they have seen that critter...and yet some pretty technologically advanced tests have failed to find anything to suggest that any such things exists, quite the opposite in fact. It also must be said that most of the photographic 'evidence' in support of 'Nessie' is blurred and inconclusive at best....and at worst has proved to be fraudulent.

The thing is, we humans love to have such romantic, mythical beasties to oooh and aaah about don't we? Virtually every civilisation that has ever existed has had such tales, and I am sure some of them were true. If you have seen the size of some of the freshwater eels in Australia for example, you can well imagine tales built around those!

However, these cat sightings are POSSIBLY more likely to have some basis in fact than most, in my opinion. I do understand Neil's scepticism, and there lies my personal problem. Like Neil, my head says no....but the romantic side of me, the part that loves that 'shiver in the night' thrill of such things...wants to believe .

And, as you say, it is difficult to imagine why some of the good, solid folk who swear to have seen these critters...would lie about it. Hmmmmmm.

Cheers, Dave.

Totally agree with all that Dave. In truth, I'm agnostic on the matter..and until I actually see one (or, think I've seen one) then I'll keep an open mind on the matter.

 

[Neil Smart]

I think I might need a whole lot more convincing than the Daily Mail reports. However I have never thought that Big Cats have not made an appearance somewhere in the UK, the doubt is whether they can survive further than just a short spell of time from their freedom into the wild.

Introduced species of plant or animals has created problems to our own native species, be it the Red Squirrel Deer, and of course Fish. We have 100lb Catfish in the Severn, and Grass Carp in excess of 30lb being caught. Mink have cause havoc, and were it not for the Otter would have continued to flourish. Signal Crayfish...wow that's a real headache for most on here, so if there is a problem, let's not give it any credibility by 'scare mongering' the real scary thing is these 'exotic' species are damaging our own species, both plant and animal.

The public at large don't by and large don't care, it's just a story, but I really expected more from those of us that actually are involved with our own wildlife on a regular basis, and for that alone we need clear heads....not go off on some Supernatural 'trip'.

 

[David Gauntlett]

From the Mail Online 2010. Of course, the Inspector could be lying or the expert who analysed the droppings mistaken



I found Durham Police Inspector Eddie Ball, who had kept lynx of his own and knew big cats well. He had recognised clues on a sheep kill, and finding some nearby droppings, had sent them off to expert Dr Hans Kruuk, who confirmed they were from a puma or leopard.
I also learnt that in 2003, The Bio Sciences Lab, in Essex, confirmed a batch of hair sent in by Nigel Pound of Lincolnshire Police belonged to a member of the big cat family. A lab in the U.S. supported their conclusion.


Read more: Leopards and other big cats ARE on the loose in Britain - just don't tell a soul | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I know Alex, and I for one do not dismiss out of hand the possibility that such cats MAY exist. Neither do I deny completely the possibility that ghosts, aliens with the nasty habit of abducting people, or life after death are true. I am even rather fond of the idea that Elvis is alive and running a fish and chip shop in Warrington

OK, OK, I apologise for that sarcastic humour, but a leopard can't change it's spots...Doh, done it again . Seriously though Alex, I do believe that such cats have, and just possibly still do, exist in the wild in this country. I do not imagine there are many, or that they last long, whether that be because they perish at the hands of man, or some natural cause.

Look at it this way. The North American cougar was once common in pretty well the whole of the US. However, it was wiped out in the eastern side of that country long ago, though it does still exist in pockets in the western side. Now, if a critter that is actually indigenous to an area as huge, wild and wooly as eastern north America can be wiped out...what would it's chances of long term survival be in a relatively tiny, far more densely populated country such as England? Can't be that high can it, if we are being realistic.

I don't know the truth Alex, I am just a realist...I base my thoughts on logic. Some of these critters undoubtedly have been seen, have existed in the wild in this country. The evidence such as that which you have put forward points to it being so. However, I do question their long term survival, and think the suggestion that there may be large numbers of them roaming the depths of darkest Surrey or wherever to be laughable. (Not that I am saying that you have suggested that).

I would like to be wrong though. There are some insufferable people in Surrey

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Alex Gowney]

You expected more of us Neil? More what? More agreement with your point of view? Everyone on here has posted rational comments, nothing to do with the "supernatural" as you call it! Most give credence to some reports, others obviously don't, which is their right of course.

I understand anyone's scepticism when dealing with the press, but I doubt even the tabloids would go into print quoting a Police Inspector unless it was something he did actually say. That would be an open invitation for a libel action, something the press do not really like! There needs to be clear heads on both sides of the debate

 

[Alex Gowney]

I know Alex, and I for one do not dismiss out of hand the possibility that such cats MAY exist. Neither do I deny completely the possibility that ghosts, aliens with the nasty habit of abducting people, or life after death are true. I am even rather fond of the idea that Elvis is alive and running a fish and chip shop in Warrington

OK, OK, I apologise for that sarcastic humour, but a leopard can't change it's spots...Doh, done it again . Seriously though Alex, I do believe that such cats have, and just possibly still do, exist in the wild in this country. I do not imagine there are many, or that they last long, whether that be because they perish at the hands of man, or some natural cause.

Look at it this way. The North American cougar was once common in pretty well the whole of the US. However, it was wiped out in the eastern side of that country long ago, though it does still exist in pockets in the western side. Now, if a critter that is actually indigenous to an area as huge, wild and wooly as eastern north America can be wiped out...what would it's chances of long term survival be in a relatively tiny, far more densely populated country such as England? Can't be that high can it, if we are being realistic.

I don't know the truth Alex, I am just a realist...I base my thoughts on logic. Some of these critters undoubtedly have been seen, have existed in the wild in this country. The evidence such as that which you have put forward points to it being so. However, I do question their long term survival, and think the suggestion that there may be large numbers of them roaming the depths of darkest Surrey or wherever to be laughable. (Not that I am saying that you have suggested that).

I would like to be wrong though. There are some insufferable people in Surrey

Cheers, Dave.

Good to see you have an open mind Dave! And basing your thoughts on logic you do realise that not every sighting or report is someone's imagination!

I'm not sure anyone has suggested large numbers of big cats, after all, twenty sightings could well be the same animal. A bit like trying to establish how many big barbel in a stretch of river due to recaptures. I would not consider the UK to be a tiny country/island either. It is in fact a very large Island and that there are many places these creatures could keep out of sight for long periods is not in question. As has been pointed out, many thousands of badgers manage it!

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Morning folks . I still re iterate my earlier question .For those in this fascinating debate that state that big cat sightings are tosh , what would they say to those individuals on this forum who have had direct experiences and have been brave enough to say so ? It is fine to believe , it is equally fine not to believe , but these people have SEEN these things , if it isn't big cats that they have seen ,what is it , how have they been mistaken ?

 

[Alex Gowney]

Morning folks . I still re iterate my earlier question .For those in this fascinating debate that state that big cat sightings are tosh , what would they say to those individuals on this forum who have had direct experiences and have been brave enough to say so ? It is fine to believe , it is equally fine not to believe , but these people have SEEN these things , if it isn't big cats that they have seen ,what is it , how have they been mistaken ?

I agree Mike, it would be very frustrating to be dismissed as a crank or a liar when you know full well what you have seen. Even worse, to be patronised by someone who implies you were just "mistaken"

 

[Alex Gowney]

An interesting point made by both Dave and Neil is whether any big cat escapees could survive for long in the wild in this country. I think the richness of food supplies would be the main factor to consider. Dave made the point about the Lynx being extinct in eastern N. America, but what food supplies would there be? In comparison to that harsh landscape the UK would be like comparing Tesco to post war rationing. Agriculture obviously provides the bulk of available food, in particular sheep. In many parts of the UK thousands of sheep roam unattended and often only loosely accounted for. I'm not sure if it's still relevant, but the government used to pay subsidy on sheep called "tac". It was not necessary to shear them or send them to the butchers, they were just allowed to roam almost as wild animals and the fee was paid annually. And there literally thousands of them. Add to this other readily available food sources such as deer, rabbits, birds,foxes, badgers etc and from a food point of view there is absolutely no doubt that big cats could not only survive in the wild here, but have a life of near luxury.Their natural habitat of Asia and Africa would be nowhere near as rich in easily killed domestic prey. A whole village in India may have no more than half a dozen animals, with many miles between villages. This would mean wild animals being the most abundant form of food and nothing like as easy to catch.

 

[Neil Smart]

You expected more of us Neil? More what? More agreement with your point of view? Everyone on here has posted rational comments, nothing to do with the "supernatural" as you call it! Most give credence to some reports, others obviously don't, which is their right of course.

I understand anyone's scepticism when dealing with the press, but I doubt even the tabloids would go into print quoting a Police Inspector unless it was something he did actually say. That would be an open invitation for a libel action, something the press do not really like! There needs to be clear heads on both sides of the debate

No I am genuinely confused that as Anglers we do have an understanding of the requirements that species need to survive. To repeat I am not discounting that Big Cats have escaped and even been seen, I will concede that, but that is of no consequence, the question is can they survive in the 'wild' and I will say No they cannot for any reasonable period.
If you look at the Scottish Wild Cat, a little bigger than a domestic Cat, it's habitat has been under threat for decades, even in the remotest parts of this Island. They are extremely rare to see, but they are managing to re-establish their numbers, just.
There would seem to be no chance of any big cat surviving for any length of time in any other part of these Isles, let alone a Urban environment.
This debate is about Big Cat sightings, well I can go to Bristol Zoo to see them, but that is not the question, it's whether these creatures could survive, for me that is a big fat NO!!