• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Late Spawning time.??

Oh dear, here we go again....every closed season without fail. Still, boring as it is, it gives me something to do when the insomnia kicks in :D

The abolitionists or 'needs changing drastically' groups invariably claim that the closed season in it's current form is 'Unfit for purpose', 'Doesn't work because it doesn't cover all spawning events all of the time', 'Gives poachers open season because legal anglers are not there to stop them', that 'They have never heard an argument for the current closed season that makes any sense', that it was 'Put in place to please game anglers', or was 'Put in place many years ago, and is no longer relevant'. In my view, the least relevant aspect of all of this are the points (including those above) put forward by these guys in support of abolition or massive change.

The fact that fish are vulnerable (some more than others I suspect) at spawning time is, I imagine, accepted by all anglers who wish to retain the status quo, and almost certainly true of most of those who are calling for a change. I would even suppose that some of those who want a complete end to the closed season think that way too.

So, if we discount those who wish to do away with the closed season for commercial or personal gain, or those....gentlemen (?).... who just don't give a damn either way so long as they can fish rivers 365 days of the year.....then most anglers feel the same way, that spawning fish need protecting. The only question then is how we go about providing the most practical, common sense, workable, enforceable scheme for providing that protection.

Now, the current system is flawed, we all recognise that....but surely something that has to cover all the eventualities of something as variable as the yearly spawning of umpteen types of fish cannot, if we are being honest, be perfect. It is pathetic to imagine that any system ever could be. So, we need to accept that it will be flawed, but at the same time is the best we can do within the constraints of the situation...and practicality. Surely the most sensible thing is to determine the AVERAGE optimal time of year which would coincide with the most spawning sessions, one which is long enough to achieve that, but yet still remaining short enough to satisfy the baying 'do away with it' mob? If you accept that, then I think you might find that whether it be by design...or by happy accident, the current closed season may well not be far out.

Also, does it REALLY matter who the closed season was originally set up by? Or why, or based on what, and to please whom, or how long ago it was? of course it doesn't, that is all irrelevant tittle tattle, barrel loads of red herrings. NOW is what matters, protecting our spawning fish in the most practical and sensible and workable way possible is what matters.

In my opinion, the suggestion that the timing of the closed season could be varied to suit the occasion is possibly THE most impractical thing I have ever heard in my life...and I am seventy years old. At present we have a close that starts at a set time, which is known by all if they are being honest. It ends on a precise time on a precise date, and that's it, end of until the new season starts, again at a very precise time, on a very precise date. So, there should be no excuse, you shouldn't be there, period....and yet we cant even police that!

Can you imagine then the mayhem that would ensue if that close occurred at a date unknown until it happened, with no way of giving warning because it was decided (by the fish and the weather) on a day to day, even hour by hour basis? Something that may vary from river to river, even different stretches of the same river, and be on/off as the vagaries of the weather dictated? Club coaches or van/car loads of anglers turning up to fish, be it a match or whatever, to be turned away by a bailiff/club official? Of course you could say that they should have checked first....but if the fish start spawning while the anglers are in transit, what then? It wouldn't be viable of course...the club officials would have to take a pragmatic stand...and that would bring us back full circle, after a lot of pointless chaos and upset anglers, and would achieve nothing. There are a thousand and more different eventualities which would make such a thing a nightmare, a monstrous, unworkable, impossible to effectively police nonsense.

What we need to do is to vastly improve our means of enforcing either the closed season we have now, or one that has been slightly adjusted date wise, as a one off, if it is proven that changing world weather patterns make that sensible. We cannot demand the status quo be maintained precisely, purely based on a dislike of change. Equally, we should not change for the sake of change, especially if that demand for change is based on impractical ideas which will inevitably fail and bring about chaos. In my opinion.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Dave, would you like a VERY LARGE J.D. to help you sleep. :)

jd2.jpg


Sorry ( hic ) pal, you didn,t respond in time. :eek:
 
There be no closed season in years to come.

Won't do any harm either, because a lot of rivers are well under fished anyway.

Time to open all year round like still-waters and canals.
 
Totally agree with Dave, keep it as is.

And again I need to add, the banks need the rest, nature needs a rest, all the critters that procreate at said time of year, need peace and quiet.

Yes there are poachers but, they are minimal and on my local waters, there ain't much left for them to have anyways. :p
 
David Gauntlett said:
Oh dear, here we go again....every closed season without fail. Still, boring as it is, it gives me something to do when the insomnia kicks in :D

The abolitionists or 'needs changing drastically' groups invariably claim that the closed season in it's current form is 'Unfit for purpose', 'Doesn't work because it doesn't cover all spawning events all of the time', 'Gives poachers open season because legal anglers are not there to stop them', that 'They have never heard an argument for the current closed season that makes any sense', that it was 'Put in place to please game anglers', or was 'Put in place many years ago, and is no longer relevant'. In my view, the least relevant aspect of all of this are the points (including those above) put forward by these guys in support of abolition or massive change.

The fact that fish are vulnerable (some more than others I suspect) at spawning time is, I imagine, accepted by all anglers who wish to retain the status quo, and almost certainly true of most of those who are calling for a change. I would even suppose that some of those who want a complete end to the closed season think that way too.

So, if we discount those who wish to do away with the closed season for commercial or personal gain, or those....gentlemen (?).... who just don't give a damn either way so long as they can fish rivers 365 days of the year.....then most anglers feel the same way, that spawning fish need protecting. The only question then is how we go about providing the most practical, common sense, workable, enforceable scheme for providing that protection.

Now, the current system is flawed, we all recognise that....but surely something that has to cover all the eventualities of something as variable as the yearly spawning of umpteen types of fish cannot, if we are being honest, be perfect. It is pathetic to imagine that any system ever could be. So, we need to accept that it will be flawed, but at the same time is the best we can do within the constraints of the situation...and practicality. Surely the most sensible thing is to determine the AVERAGE optimal time of year which would coincide with the most spawning sessions, one which is long enough to achieve that, but yet still remaining short enough to satisfy the baying 'do away with it' mob? If you accept that, then I think you might find that whether it be by design...or by happy accident, the current closed season may well not be far out.

Also, does it REALLY matter who the closed season was originally set up by? Or why, or based on what, and to please whom, or how long ago it was? of course it doesn't, that is all irrelevant tittle tattle, barrel loads of red herrings. NOW is what matters, protecting our spawning fish in the most practical and sensible and workable way possible is what matters.

In my opinion, the suggestion that the timing of the closed season could be varied to suit the occasion is possibly THE most impractical thing I have ever heard in my life...and I am seventy years old. At present we have a close that starts at a set time, which is known by all if they are being honest. It ends on a precise time on a precise date, and that's it, end of until the new season starts, again at a very precise time, on a very precise date. So, there should be no excuse, you shouldn't be there, period....and yet we cant even police that!

Can you imagine then the mayhem that would ensue if that close occurred at a date unknown until it happened, with no way of giving warning because it was decided (by the fish and the weather) on a day to day, even hour by hour basis? Something that may vary from river to river, even different stretches of the same river, and be on/off as the vagaries of the weather dictated? Club coaches or van/car loads of anglers turning up to fish, be it a match or whatever, to be turned away by a bailiff/club official? Of course you could say that they should have checked first....but if the fish start spawning while the anglers are in transit, what then? It wouldn't be viable of course...the club officials would have to take a pragmatic stand...and that would bring us back full circle, after a lot of pointless chaos and upset anglers, and would achieve nothing. There are a thousand and more different eventualities which would make such a thing a nightmare, a monstrous, unworkable, impossible to effectively police nonsense.

What we need to do is to vastly improve our means of enforcing either the closed season we have now, or one that has been slightly adjusted date wise, as a one off, if it is proven that changing world weather patterns make that sensible. We cannot demand the status quo be maintained precisely, purely based on a dislike of change. Equally, we should not change for the sake of change, especially if that demand for change is based on impractical ideas which will inevitably fail and bring about chaos. In my opinion.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...
In your opinion, don't make me laugh, you discount anyone that might have a different opinion to your rant as some kind of fruitcake desperado's who sole aim is to be able to fish the river 365 days of the year.

You never touched on the very thorny matter of there is no close season on still waters, and I am at a complete loss as to how that little bit of legislation is enforceable and what excuses that make any sense at all to keep it.

We all know that why we the law abiding anglers obey the close season, the less law abiding are having there way with the fish, it's a crazy situation and completely unenforceable, the police do not consider it a crime, and many just look the other way, or post that they have seen such but do nowt about it.

Don't rely on others to protect out rivers they won't, only anglers can, but to be treated like idiots in enforcing a close season because we apparently need to be told what is best for us is insulting.

Personally I would rather have a close season than not, but it IS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE, in it's present form, unless it can be policed with true intent.
I have too many times tried to kick off poachers and BBQ'ers in the close season,

I am truly tired of doing that without the support of the cops, I rarely walk the banks in the close season anymore because I really think I just might lose it.

Forget the old fanatsy cane rod and pin close season thinking, get real it's 2015 and our rivers are being ruined, whilst we dream.:rolleyes:
 
Chris Guy said:
Totally agree with Dave, keep it as is.

And again I need to add, the banks need the rest, nature needs a rest, all the critters that procreate at said time of year, need peace and quiet.

Yes there are poachers but, they are minimal and on my local waters, there ain't much left for them to have anyways. :p
Click to expand...

The poachers have had the fish Chris? Don't worry too much about the vegetation being trampled, grass and shrubs want to grow in the spring a herd of wildebeast would only make a difference, besides river anglers are a dying breed, they are a rare species, is it any wonder?
 
Afternoon Neil :D:D:D

I thought I might wake you up mate, just a shame that your almost indecent haste to get to your keyboard to go into attack mode has caused you to get out of the wrong side of the bed :D:p:D

But, do I care? Not a bit of it mate, your opinion is every bit as valid as mine. So, all the best for the new season Neil, have a good 'un mate. But...don't forget...if you get your way there won't be a new season to look forward to, will there? It will just be the same old stale one as last year...and the year before...and the year b...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Never mind, once the boredom gets too much you can take up golf mate. You'l like that, no closed season at all, never has been, as a result of which there is not one single poacher in sight :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Afternoon Neil :D:D:D

I thought I might wake you up mate, just a shame that your almost indecent haste to get to your keyboard to go into attack mode has caused you to get out of the wrong side of the bed :D:p:D

But, do I care? Not a bit of it mate, your opinion is every bit as valid as mine. So, all the best for the new season Neil, have a good 'un mate. But...don't forget...if you get your way there won't be a new season to look forward to, will there? It will just be the same old stale one as last year...and the year before...and the year b...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Never mind, once the boredom gets too much you can take up golf mate. You'l like that, no closed season at all, never has been, as a result of which there is not one single poacher in sight :D

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Thank you I will do my best, I did say I was in favour of a close season, but since it is just a permit for the poachers, then I would prefer the policing of our rivers to be handed back to the angler.

Done golf, it's a great sport, but loaned my clubs out to a 'friend' and never got them back:) So will stick to the boring fishing for now I think. I sincerely hope you get your mojo back Dave, and get ou there and get yer string pulled, it really is the best tonic.

Sorry if you think I was in attack mode, I guess I was it's the raw hunter in me I suppose, :rolleyes: just finished tying a few rigs and getting together the gear for an early start Tuesday morning, boy am I pumped.:p
 
Glad to hear it mate, and on a more serious note Neil, I do understand and respect and agree with your point about poachers making hay while the sun shines. The only difference between us is in our opinions on how to deal with what is, as you say, a huge problem.

The truth of the matter is that our rivers are hugely under-fished now, that being brought about in part by anglers retreating to the 'comforts' of carp match fishing commercials, and the decline of rivers and river fishing in general. Sadly, that sorry state is getting worse year by year, and will continue to do so, unless WE bring about a change.

Poaching is rife all year round now, and getting worse for all the well known reasons. However, if we allowed fishing twelve months a year instead of the current nine, do you think that would necessarily bring about an overall improvement? Or, might it just mean that with our enthusiasm watered down by unlimited fishing time, we may be spread even thinner on the ground year round...meaning that poachers had virtually no restrictions at all? I don't know the answer to that one mate....but it's a distinct possibility, isn't it?

To me, the answer is improved policing of the river banks, year round. Anglers on the banks is all well and good, but we have that the majority of the time now...and we have rampant poaching now, too. It really isn't just in the closed season that they pop out of the woodwork mate, is it? Also, while I applaud your courage in tackling poachers on the bank, that is not now something that single anglers should do aggresively, in particular where there are groups of poachers involved. Too many of these guys now are quite willing to be violent, and increasingly so, there are weapons involved...and they ARE prepared to use them.

We need to ask the question Neil, and you and I do our bit in that way, and we need to report issues, but it needs to be done with care. Truth be known, it shouldn't be down to anglers alone, we MUST and CAN get the police involved. It is now a fact that due to the AT pushing things, police forces nationwide are being told that poaching IS an offence, and that they are obliged to get involved if made aware of that offence taking place...they ARE waking up at last. Due to pressure from the AT, we are not quite the joke we were previously, when the police mistakenly assumed that poaching was nothing to do with them.

So...if we could just get more anglers to join the AT, make that body as strong as it should be, then we would have the clout to meet our problems head on...and win. In case you haven't seen it, take a look at this mate. And seriously, my best wishes to you for the coming season Neil. And take care out there mate.

Taking Action To Tackle Poaching - The Angling Trust

Cheers, Dave.
 
Nothing not to agree with Dave, I subscribe to AT and do read their newsletters, very depressing, I really believe that fish theft doesn't raise any concerns with anyone apart from Anglers.

Yes the river angler is a rare species, and of course he or she might feel short changed by the close season, and what of those that leave the rivers in March never to return?

Truth is the majority of Angling clubs are very backward thinking when it comes to actually managing their assets, if it was different, then you might expect the clubs to exercise some efficient balliffing together with controlling their rivers regarding spawning areas and habitat control.

If that were a reality, and they did, then we would really be in the driving seat.

Game fishing clubs do all of that, this is why the unique body the Wye and Usk Foundation actually manages all it's fisheries so well, both coarse and game, but the downside is costly fishing, a Wye DT can be as much as £40 a day, perhaps that might be a price we have to pay to protect our rivers?

However in spite of all that if the Government and various Quango's play only lip service to conservation I am very much afraid that things will get even worse.
 
I regularly see the opinion "our rivers are hugely underfished". It's common in the angling prss but not my experience in the north of England. There are certainly fewer "bit bashers" and match anglers, but the number of barbel anglers has increased tenfold in the last 10-15 years in my experience.

I think those two things have balanced each other out, given the increase in barbel populations.
 
I agree with tonys post, the current closed season is on its last legs and will go..
I also think the EA licence will change also at the same time, it will more than likely cover 3 rods and will increase in price..
 
Who the h*ll wants to fish 3 rods on a river ??? It takes me all my time to watch 1 float, or tip. But if it means an increase in license prices, then i wouldn't be surprised if it happened. I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra, as long as some of it went to the Angling Trust. And yes, i am a member. :)

As for the rape, oops, sorry, i meant the closed season. Lets move with the times, and get shut. What "percentage" of river anglers actually fish week in, week out, on our rivers ? A very small percentage if were honest. I,m guessing, a larger proportion, are " occasional " river anglers, myself included. Just because the closed season was abolished, i can,t actually see them being over run with new anglers fishing 365 days of the year, can you ? Just my tuppence worth. :)
 
To my way of thinking the ''principle'' of the close season being there to allow fish to spawn was made meaningless once it was abolished on still waters .I do think the idea of allowing fish to spawn in peace is a good one however the obvious flaw is that they don't all spawn at the same time , isn't nature inconvenient ...
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
To my way of thinking the ''principle'' of the close season being there to allow fish to spawn was made meaningless once it was abolished on still waters .I do think the idea of allowing fish to spawn in peace is a good one however the obvious flaw is that they don't all spawn at the same time , isn't nature inconvenient ...
Click to expand...

Very true Mike, nature IS very inconvenient, which is the club many people use to batter the current closed season (or rather it's timing) as though that 'inconvenience' somehow renders it an impossibility, or even irrelevant. However, if you ask around, there is a fairly large percentage of anglers who, like yourself, agree that in principle, having a closed season to allow fish to spawn in peace IS a good idea. Sadly, thinking seem to get a bit muddied and confused from then on, undoubtedly as a result of the pressure applied by the rather more excitable group who wish to see the close done away with.

Secondly Mike, I cannot see how you arrived at the logic behind your claim that the act of getting rid of the closed season on still waters renders the actual principle behind a closed season 'meaningless'. In my opinion, getting rid of the closed season on still waters was wrong, simple as that, but of course others hold the opposite view. However, all of our opinions on the rights or wrongs of that act are irrelevant in this instance. Those opinions don't affect the basic principal that allowing fish to have a period of peace and quiet to increase the likelihood of a successful spawning event is rather a good idea.

All the ranting about how fish in still waters 'Still seem to manage ok' is also irrelevant...because we don't know how well they would now be doing had the closed season not been removed, especially when you factor in the sometimes secretive restocking that takes place. I was quite chuffed last year when very small barbel started showing up on my stretch of river. I felt a nice warm glow of satisfaction (not to mention relief) at the thought that these fish were now spawning successfully, despite the numerous problems that increasingly beset them. I felt devastated recently when I discovered that actually these fish were the result of an EA stocking, one of several that mysteriously, club members were generally not informed about. How many times do you thing THAT happens, influencing our opinions on how well our fish breed?

I think it is surely a case of being in denial for anyone to claim that if the closed season (as it stands, or after minor adjustments) manages to allow a fair proportion of our fish to spawn in peace....and that results in a higher success rate for those lucky ones, then it is well worth having one. It is never going to be perfect...by the very nature of things, it cannot be....but what kind of weird, twisted logic can come up with the claim that not having a closed season will allow just as many fish to spawn successfully?

It has been said before on this thread that if there IS a closed season, then any angler seen on the bank at that time IS a poacher. Does that not hugely simplify the policing of our rivers during that period? And does that not make the claim that not having anglers there to keep poachers away is a nonsense? The answer to the poacher problem is surely more efficient policing of our rivers, and I feel strongly that we should not allow them to add insult to injury by allowing them to force us into overriding our principals on this issue.

Cheers, Dave.
 
I would change the dates of the current closed season, the fact that I could go and target barbel on spawning beds right now and am only not doing so through self constraint/an informed position (whatever) is absolutely daft, especially as it is the closed season that is meant to protect spawning fish not an anglers conscience.

One thing to remember, especially whilst we are left with a closed season that doesn't actually fulfil all the objectives that its supporters says it does, is that very soon there will be a generation of anglers who have no connection to June 16th. The Korda generation are not river anglers and will not be nostalgic about keeping the closed season just to keep the magic of June 16th alive.

All the more reason to have a look into changing the closed season as we know it and setting it up so as it aligns to fulfilling the conservation objectives that the majority are in agreement about.

My tuppence would be to shut the rivers in the last week of April and open them up in or around the last week of July.

Bream, roach, chub, AND barbel could spawn and rest up afterwards in peace.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top