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Reasons for Barbel population decline

Yes sorry Gra for harping on about the the Teme, Warks Avon and Severn, those I know first hand, but I do communicate with other Barbel anglers and they say the same, and reiterate the problem is a national one, the Thames (and its various backwaters), the Cherwell, the Kennett, the Windrush, the Bristol Avon, the Lugg, the Wensum, the Medway, the Ouse, the Dorset Stour and even the Wye isnt what it was as local anglers will tell you, all show or have shown population demise or collapse, the only river that seems to buck this trend is the Trent......but that is suspiciously close to Calverton and I know has received substantial stockings around the Rugley areas over the years, this has been confirmed by the EA/Calverton themselves...
 
Yes Lawrence. When you and I and a few others were highlighting the apparent absence of year classes a few years ago the problem seems far worse now and it pleasing so many are recognising we weren't talking complete rubbish.

I guess being able to fish 3 or more times a week gave us a good basis for those concerns.


Graham
 
Darren Hawen said:
Is the historical data from the EA regarding electro-fishing results freely available? This would surely show any changes in average fish size and any changes in the Bio-mass of fish populations etc over a period of time? I assume this has already been considered? Stretches of the Bristol Avon and Kennet that I fished in the Naughties were electro-fished annually I believe, and there must be some good hard info available from that. Just a thought.
Darren
Click to expand...

They are Darren.

I used to religiously get the EA fishery reports for the Great Ouse, you just need to find the local fishery guy/gal who will get them together and send them to you, once you get a contact you can pester them all you like!

They will probably just confirm the decline you have already observed.

Interestingly, some strectches of the Great Ouse had consistent biomass readings year on year but fish numbers declined each time. Also one stretch (but probably indicative of most of the fishery) went from getting the top rating for a fishery to the bottom within about 5 years.


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Whilst all this research and data collecting is going on (!) how about some EA type or barbel society officiado show anglers some way of improving a fishery?

How to safely create habitat for example? Or how to build a fish refuge?

Then fishing clubs work parties could actually serve a benefit to the fishery instead of just cleaning up and making swims. Or even a group of like minded anglers getting together to do something good for the fishery?

It might not always work, but every little and all the more, helps.

The Willows I tried planting last spring didn't survive this years floods or someone pulled them up?:eek: But I'll stick a few more in the same place (bit further back up the bank) and try again.



ATB
Ash
 
What a good idea Ash. I know work of that type has been done on the Loddon at the Arborfield area, at St Patricks a survey, possibly more and also work on introducing gravel spawning grounds on the dredged Stour.

Hopefully those with more info can enlighten and advise.

Darren. Last kennet survey I knew of was at LB about 4 years ago and I believe showed a marked decline with most barbel coming from below the weir in the gravel run far bank.

Again. Any uptodate info from anyone or from RDAA available on their website?

Graham
 
Thanks for the info Ash, this data could surely be put to positive use by someone!? Even if just to highlight the decline in Barbel numbers on some rivers.
And a good shout regarding habitat creation, fish refuges etc. Possibly the first steps to consider on any river, before ANY restocking takes place.

Darren
 
Just an addition and from personal experience as I fish the Trent a lot. I was discussing with a couple of fellow Trenters this thread. We all came to the concensus that the river peaked about 3 seasons ago. Numbers have declined or should i say catches but on a plus note the Barbel are getting bigger. We all put it down to the floods during quote me if im wrong? During the 2012 season? For weeks it was a washout for most parts of the season. On a good note last year we caught more 1 to 4lb fish than ever before. The last couple of years have been fairly kind on the flood front, but you never know whats around the corner?
 
Jon, to be honest I noticed a sharp decline in Numbers after the 2009 ? or was it 2007 Terrible spawning time Summer floods down this way.

The Teme was also affected so I don't think what you are saying is without a lot of merit.

Can you give me any info about known stockings of fish on the Trent at all? Cheers

Graham
 
The official line from the EA was that the only (official) stocking of the Trent took place in the Rugely area of the river (pretty well upstream)......however, without any evidence other than anecdotal, I suspect stocking has gone on on a larger scale, even the distributing the of excess production of Barbel fingerlings has been suggested for the Trents boom in recent times, as the excess were stocked into the Trent, there also seems to be an excessive unnatural number of large females being caught in the Trent, just like the Ouse in its day, this is another sign of aquacultured Barbel, the failure of farmed Barbel is that the EA haven't got a clue of what sex the Barbel are at that age and size, in effect they could all be female or vise versa
 
I also dont hold with the idea that floods have some how washed Barbel (on various rivers) away one way or the other, I believe there is no better fish that can cope with the raging torrent off a flooded river than a Barbel, and how come no other fish suffered or showed any other detrimental effects, also bear in mind, during the huge Barbel boom of the 70's 80's and 90's on the river Severn, the river also experienced sever flooding on many occasions and during that period with no detrimental effects to the Barbel
 
I agree with you Graham that post the 2007 summer floods there was a definite decline in the number of fish that I caught, certainly on the Kennet and the odd trip to the BA at that time. But I can only speak regarding 2 sections of the Kennet. Can any other Kenneteers/BA regulars back this up?

Darren
 
Re specific locations, in this case LB the Kennet, am not sure this is the right place to give specific locations. Brilliant discussion though this is in all other things.

Regards to all, Nick
 
Kennet/BA other rivers in general, not specific stretches.
NB - I also got married in 2007 which is probably the real reason my catch returns have declined due to much less time on the bank.. :rolleyes:
And agree that it's an excellent/much needed discussion.
Thumbs up to the OP for getting it started.

Darren
 
Lawrence,

Yes I understand that Barbel numbers are down, and I have been trawling around as I guess we all have to at least try and understand why there is a marked decline, if we were to look at something else other than the Otter perhaps.

Lifting up some science via Bob Roberts articles he stated that Barbel males of approx 50!!! will fertilise a single females eggs, given the dearth of Barbel in rivers as such as the Teme I doubt that that would be a viable River for the females to spawn if indeed that amount of males are required.

I believe that Barbel will not spawn at all unless conditions are favourable, that is if suitable gravel is not available, and other factors including enough males perhaps.
 
Jon Frisby said:
Just an addition and from personal experience as I fish the Trent a lot. I was discussing with a couple of fellow Trenters this thread. We all came to the concensus that the river peaked about 3 seasons ago. Numbers have declined or should i say catches but on a plus note the Barbel are getting bigger. We all put it down to the floods during quote me if im wrong? During the 2012 season? For weeks it was a washout for most parts of the season. On a good note last year we caught more 1 to 4lb fish than ever before. The last couple of years have been fairly kind on the flood front, but you never know whats around the corner?
Click to expand...

Hello Jon . Out of curiosity , are many otters sighted on the Trent ? I read the river reports and don't recall any mention of the blighters
 
Neil Smart said:
Lawrence,

Yes I understand that Barbel numbers are down, and I have been trawling around as I guess we all have to at least try and understand why there is a marked decline, if we were to look at something else other than the Otter perhaps.

Lifting up some science via Bob Roberts articles he stated that Barbel males of approx 50!!! will fertilise a single females eggs, given the dearth of Barbel in rivers as such as the Teme I doubt that that would be a viable River for the females to spawn if indeed that amount of males are required.

I believe that Barbel will not spawn at all unless conditions are favourable, that is if suitable gravel is not available, and other factors including enough males perhaps.
Click to expand...

Neil, I know Bob Roberts is way off the scale when he says that or suggests that the ratio for successful spawning is 50:1, the normal natural ratio is between 7 and 10 male Barbel to each female, but I think the clues to the Barbels decline is not so far removed, could it be that the reason for a dwindling or none sustainable Barbel populations is because of the lack of male fish, if you look at the pattern of events that generally occur on most rivers that ultimately show radical decline in Barbel numbers is an upsurge and profusion of unprecedented massive Barbel, in other words female Barbel that are not spawning and that are just getting bigger, and why arent they spawning? Maybe a lack of the smaller males......is it all conjecture based on pseudo science or a worthy hypothesis made by people with a firm base knowledge of the species?
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Neil, I know Bob Roberts is way off the scale when he says that or suggests that the ratio for successful spawning is 50:1, the normal natural ratio is between 7 and 10 male Barbel to each female, but I think the clues to the Barbels decline is not so far removed, could it be that the reason for a dwindling or none sustainable Barbel populations is because of the lack of male fish, if you look at the pattern of events that generally occur on most rivers that ultimately show radical decline in Barbel numbers is an upsurge and profusion of unprecedented massive Barbel, in other words female Barbel that are not spawning and that are just getting bigger, and why arent they spawning? Maybe a lack of the smaller males......is it all conjecture based on pseudo science or a worthy hypothesis made by people with a firm base knowledge of the species?
Click to expand...

If it takes 7 to 10 males and they are still having problems with either the male or female ?
The one way to find out if there is a problem with either the male or female fish is to carry out a autopsy on male and female fish and find out if there is a problem
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Neil, I know Bob Roberts is way off the scale when he says that or suggests that the ratio for successful spawning is 50:1, the normal natural ratio is between 7 and 10 male Barbel to each female, but I think the clues to the Barbels decline is not so far removed, could it be that the reason for a dwindling or none sustainable Barbel populations is because of the lack of male fish, if you look at the pattern of events that generally occur on most rivers that ultimately show radical decline in Barbel numbers is an upsurge and profusion of unprecedented massive Barbel, in other words female Barbel that are not spawning and that are just getting bigger, and why arent they spawning? Maybe a lack of the smaller males......is it all conjecture based on pseudo science or a worthy hypothesis made by people with a firm base knowledge of the species?
Click to expand...

In fairness to Bob he sourced that from a study (E Baras fish and reproduction). And yes I have a idea that that it could be a lack of willing males, that would explain the upsurge in larger female specimens.
Whatever the ratio males to females required if there was a catastrophic reduction in barbel numbers over a short period, then that might make any spawning activity unsustainable.
Of the short term reduction in barbel numbers may be attributed to predation ,coinciding with the upsurge in Otter numbers.
 
Joe Fletcher said:
If it takes 7 to 10 males and they are still having problems with either the male or female ?
The one way to find out if there is a problem with either the male or female fish is to carry out a autopsy on male and female fish and find out if there is a problem
Click to expand...

The simple and humane way to find out would be to milk some captured fish to see if fertile I guess.
 
It could mean Neil that the bigger females no longer have the protection of the shoal, because the decline of the greater numbers of males and become more vulnerable to Otters, thus giving the impression its all the otters fault, maybe it is, maybe it isnt. With the EA stocking Barbel in their 1000's and not having a clue what sex they are, they could be adding to the problem.....maybe?
 
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