Colin Gordon
No Longer a Member
Nowt wrong with veal crates, battery hens and pig stalls for that matter.
-
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Stillwater barbel fishing 2010
- Thread starter Ray Walton
- Start date
Dave Wingfield
Senior Member
Nor keepnets if used correctly, I have a few and use them when I can
Best Regards
Dave
Best Regards
Dave
Colin Gordon
No Longer a Member
Exactly Dave. The main trouble with keepnets and still waters alike are peoples misconstrued perception of what they are and how in the case of keepnets it should be used correctly.
Its almost like many river anglers think all still waters are about an acre or two in area, three feet deep and with a hugely inflated population of severely hook damaged semi-tame carp.
Which are just sat there in waiting for the next match angler to cram in his keepnet along with a couple of hundred pounds of other fish.
Rich, most lakes that do still allow keepnets not only operate weight limits but also specify silver fish in one net carp OR barbel in another.
Its almost like many river anglers think all still waters are about an acre or two in area, three feet deep and with a hugely inflated population of severely hook damaged semi-tame carp.
Which are just sat there in waiting for the next match angler to cram in his keepnet along with a couple of hundred pounds of other fish.
Rich, most lakes that do still allow keepnets not only operate weight limits but also specify silver fish in one net carp OR barbel in another.
Chris Turnbull
Senior Member
Nowt wrong with veal crates, battery hens and pig stalls for that matter.
What about bestiality?
Paul Hiom
Senior Member
I'm past getting wound up by all the pros and cons of barbel in stillwaters, there is no law to prevent introductions, just forms to fill in, some do spawn in stillwaters (Trimpley Reservoir) and have done for some years and the speed at which the barbel and other river fish are being predated by otters (bury your head if you wish), some stillwaters may end up being the safest places for them. In an ideal world, i would love to see barbel prevented from being introduced into stillwaters,BUT this is no ideal world and the environment isnt what it was. I also have to agree with Pete L, that at no time in my life i have ever felt so let down by the EA. If not buying a license was an option i'd take it without hesitation. Now that the dust has settled at least we can see that the AT are starting to make some waves. Why dont the government give control of licenses over to the AT. Our money might be better spent.
Colin Gordon
No Longer a Member
Can't say I've ever tried nor do I intend to start, though if it rocks your boat go ahead you ain't effecting me and the chance of hybridising are highly unlikely..... Be fore warned pc plod may take it as being in the public's interest to prosecute, so maybe don't video any antics you might wish to engage in.
Chris Turnbull
Senior Member
Until that day comes we are powerless.
David Hall
Senior Member
and that day will never come,
the licence money is taken to the centre like any other tax take and it's all part of the uk's overall income, funds are then given out to all departments of government and the EA decide what the priorities are within the budget they have been given, the link between what we pay as anglers and what comes back is irrelevant.
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Can someone bring this up at the Barbel Society AGM in 'any other business'!
regarding the BS stance on 'Stillwater Barbel' in relation to the statements made in to the 'Research and Conservation' protocol and 'Barbel Facts' both published on the BS website and elsewhere as below.
The Barbel Society ‘Research and Conservation’ statements and 'Facts' statements and policy has always been seen to ‘condemn’ Stillwater Barbel Fishing and the Stocking of barbel into stillwaters, and this states valid points to promote, inform and convince 'all' barbel anglers, that this practice is highly detrimental to barbel and wrong!
Hence the BS slogan ‘Swim Wild…Swim Free’ was originally adopted to aid and promote the mission cause to get it outlawed.
There seems to be a major element of contradiction regarding 'Stillwater Barbel' in recent times and a massive U turn by Steve Pope + the BS Committee regarding this issue, 'without' informing the BS membership and others and to where it has been suppressed.
I remember (as a founder BS member myself) in the early days to where the BS as a whole were continuously making waves and confronting Daiwa, for ’sponsoring’ Daiwa Makins Fishery, which was regarded as the home/prison of Stillwater Barbel.
How things have 'quietly' changed recently though, and it needs to be addressed firmly and promptly at the AGM.
Makins Fishery is now 'sponsored' by Dynamite Baits and the fishery name has changed to ‘Dynamite Makins Fishery’.
Steve Pope now 'endorses' Dynamite Baits who also 'sponsor' the Barbel Society to some degree, and to where Steve Pope is 'personally sponsored' by Dynamite Baits as one of their team.
The question should be raised as to why the Barbel Society and especially the Chairman, Steve Pope have been allowed by the BS committee to become associated and 'in bed' with a sponsor of Stillwater Barbel Fishing!
The BS Research and Conservation Statement and Facts still condemn Stillwater Barbel Fishing are the words are still preached to every barbel angler in the UK and, to whom the BS claim they represent on all barbel issues and matters.
The Barbel Society being associated with a Stillwater Barbel Sponsor, and to where the Chairman is personally sponsored and endorsing the company name, makes his position ‘untenable’ as it brings the Barbel Society’s good name, achievements, reputation and conservation objectives into disrepute.
Why nothing has been said on this matter is a mystery, but perhaps most don't know in the first place, so nothing new then.
Many Thanks…Ray (see Below)
As Published
Stillwater barbel
The Barbel Society remains resolutely opposed to the stocking of barbel in stillwaters.
The barbel is clearly highly adapted to life in flowing water with consistently low temperatures and high oxygen levels, and requires great care on return to the water after capture.
There is little evidence that barbel already stocked into stillwaters thrive or survive in the long term, or that there is a strong or genuine demand from anglers for stillwater barbel. The Society urges fishery owners to refrain from stocking barbel into stillwaters, and also expects the Environment Agency to review their policy of allowing such stockings.
The moral and ethical arguments against stillwater barbel are also considerable.
Putting barbel into lakes is like keeping kestrels in a chicken coop.
BS Facts
6. The Environment Agency is their good practice guide to Freshwater Fisheries state that is dubious practice to deliberately stock barbel into habitats where they are expected to live on a catch-and-release basis while being very unlikely to be able to spawn successfully.
7. There is justifiable fear that stocking small barbel into commercial stillwater fisheries creates a demand leading the unscrupulous to take large barbel from the river to the detriment of the river anglers and the barbel themselves.
8. Fish farms which breed barbel and grow them on for stocking do this in semi still water but all require some method for increased oxygenation.
9. There is no published scientific information which recommends the stocking of barbel into stillwaters, or which claims barbel thrive and grow big in stillwater.
10. Barbel require conditions to spawn which cannot be found in stillwaters and naturally sustaining populations of barbel in stillwaters are not possible.
11. Barbel are less tolerant of high water temperatures and low oxygen levels that stillwater fish such as tench and carp. The lethal concentration of oxygen is almost twice as high for barbel that it is for tench.
12. More barbel have been stocked into stillwaters than all the rivers put together. These stillwater stockings are frequently repeated as the only impact they have is to increase the mortality rates of the stillwater fishery.
13. Barbel are great wanderers in rivers, often moving several kilometres in a matter of days in order to seek suitable conditions when changes in water temperature, flow rates etc. occur and also to suit their seasonal needs. Barbel cannot do this in the commercial stillwaters.
14. Commercial stillwaters do not provide the correct habitat for barbel to thrive not just the water quality is in question but the overhead cover is usually missing.
17. Several case studies of the effects of impoundment of river sections containing natural barbel populations exist. In all cases, with the onset of stillwater flow conditions barbel populations declined appreciably.
18. Thousands of small barbel have entered Trimpley reservoir via an inlet from the River Severn yet Trimpley is not full of large barbel ! If only 10% of them had entered a suitable habitat there would have been a barbel explosion.
19. Barbel are stocked into commercial stillwaters without any thought for the fish themselves but for financial gain - greed!
20. Barbel spend most of their lives on the river bed and in stillwaters they have a greater risk of parasites in these conditions.
21. The potential for recapture is far greater in stillwaters than it is in rivers and barbel will experience increased stress when frequently caught and more so at spawning time by being unable to spawn in stillwater conditions. Barbel frequently die after capture from stillwaters.
22. Continued exposure to poor water quality and lack of water flow will affect the survival of individual barbel - they will die and in commercial stillwaters they are frequently stolen from rivers and re-stocked into stillwaters.
regarding the BS stance on 'Stillwater Barbel' in relation to the statements made in to the 'Research and Conservation' protocol and 'Barbel Facts' both published on the BS website and elsewhere as below.
The Barbel Society ‘Research and Conservation’ statements and 'Facts' statements and policy has always been seen to ‘condemn’ Stillwater Barbel Fishing and the Stocking of barbel into stillwaters, and this states valid points to promote, inform and convince 'all' barbel anglers, that this practice is highly detrimental to barbel and wrong!
Hence the BS slogan ‘Swim Wild…Swim Free’ was originally adopted to aid and promote the mission cause to get it outlawed.
There seems to be a major element of contradiction regarding 'Stillwater Barbel' in recent times and a massive U turn by Steve Pope + the BS Committee regarding this issue, 'without' informing the BS membership and others and to where it has been suppressed.
I remember (as a founder BS member myself) in the early days to where the BS as a whole were continuously making waves and confronting Daiwa, for ’sponsoring’ Daiwa Makins Fishery, which was regarded as the home/prison of Stillwater Barbel.
How things have 'quietly' changed recently though, and it needs to be addressed firmly and promptly at the AGM.
Makins Fishery is now 'sponsored' by Dynamite Baits and the fishery name has changed to ‘Dynamite Makins Fishery’.
Steve Pope now 'endorses' Dynamite Baits who also 'sponsor' the Barbel Society to some degree, and to where Steve Pope is 'personally sponsored' by Dynamite Baits as one of their team.
The question should be raised as to why the Barbel Society and especially the Chairman, Steve Pope have been allowed by the BS committee to become associated and 'in bed' with a sponsor of Stillwater Barbel Fishing!
The BS Research and Conservation Statement and Facts still condemn Stillwater Barbel Fishing are the words are still preached to every barbel angler in the UK and, to whom the BS claim they represent on all barbel issues and matters.
The Barbel Society being associated with a Stillwater Barbel Sponsor, and to where the Chairman is personally sponsored and endorsing the company name, makes his position ‘untenable’ as it brings the Barbel Society’s good name, achievements, reputation and conservation objectives into disrepute.
Why nothing has been said on this matter is a mystery, but perhaps most don't know in the first place, so nothing new then.
Many Thanks…Ray (see Below)
As Published
Stillwater barbel
The Barbel Society remains resolutely opposed to the stocking of barbel in stillwaters.
The barbel is clearly highly adapted to life in flowing water with consistently low temperatures and high oxygen levels, and requires great care on return to the water after capture.
There is little evidence that barbel already stocked into stillwaters thrive or survive in the long term, or that there is a strong or genuine demand from anglers for stillwater barbel. The Society urges fishery owners to refrain from stocking barbel into stillwaters, and also expects the Environment Agency to review their policy of allowing such stockings.
The moral and ethical arguments against stillwater barbel are also considerable.
Putting barbel into lakes is like keeping kestrels in a chicken coop.
BS Facts
6. The Environment Agency is their good practice guide to Freshwater Fisheries state that is dubious practice to deliberately stock barbel into habitats where they are expected to live on a catch-and-release basis while being very unlikely to be able to spawn successfully.
7. There is justifiable fear that stocking small barbel into commercial stillwater fisheries creates a demand leading the unscrupulous to take large barbel from the river to the detriment of the river anglers and the barbel themselves.
8. Fish farms which breed barbel and grow them on for stocking do this in semi still water but all require some method for increased oxygenation.
9. There is no published scientific information which recommends the stocking of barbel into stillwaters, or which claims barbel thrive and grow big in stillwater.
10. Barbel require conditions to spawn which cannot be found in stillwaters and naturally sustaining populations of barbel in stillwaters are not possible.
11. Barbel are less tolerant of high water temperatures and low oxygen levels that stillwater fish such as tench and carp. The lethal concentration of oxygen is almost twice as high for barbel that it is for tench.
12. More barbel have been stocked into stillwaters than all the rivers put together. These stillwater stockings are frequently repeated as the only impact they have is to increase the mortality rates of the stillwater fishery.
13. Barbel are great wanderers in rivers, often moving several kilometres in a matter of days in order to seek suitable conditions when changes in water temperature, flow rates etc. occur and also to suit their seasonal needs. Barbel cannot do this in the commercial stillwaters.
14. Commercial stillwaters do not provide the correct habitat for barbel to thrive not just the water quality is in question but the overhead cover is usually missing.
17. Several case studies of the effects of impoundment of river sections containing natural barbel populations exist. In all cases, with the onset of stillwater flow conditions barbel populations declined appreciably.
18. Thousands of small barbel have entered Trimpley reservoir via an inlet from the River Severn yet Trimpley is not full of large barbel ! If only 10% of them had entered a suitable habitat there would have been a barbel explosion.
19. Barbel are stocked into commercial stillwaters without any thought for the fish themselves but for financial gain - greed!
20. Barbel spend most of their lives on the river bed and in stillwaters they have a greater risk of parasites in these conditions.
21. The potential for recapture is far greater in stillwaters than it is in rivers and barbel will experience increased stress when frequently caught and more so at spawning time by being unable to spawn in stillwater conditions. Barbel frequently die after capture from stillwaters.
22. Continued exposure to poor water quality and lack of water flow will affect the survival of individual barbel - they will die and in commercial stillwaters they are frequently stolen from rivers and re-stocked into stillwaters.
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R
Rich Frampton
Guest
Here we go again!!!!
Rick Carnell
Senior Member
He's got a point though
Chris Jones
Senior Member
I'll first state that I'm somewhere between indifferent and anti still water barbel.
Definitely no where near the incandescent that some manage!
I would like to ask if any on here, God forbid, have actually caught a still water barbel? I have, and while I've no desire to catch them, I must say that I don't recognise many of the negative reports in the few I've caught. They were far from the insipid creatures that I'd been lead to believe they would be. They certainly didn't go belly up after capture and, relative to their size, they fought like demons.
Now, will it be burning tyres or a good old fashioned lynching?
I dare say that I'll now be blackballed by the Barbel Society.
Definitely no where near the incandescent that some manage!
I would like to ask if any on here, God forbid, have actually caught a still water barbel? I have, and while I've no desire to catch them, I must say that I don't recognise many of the negative reports in the few I've caught. They were far from the insipid creatures that I'd been lead to believe they would be. They certainly didn't go belly up after capture and, relative to their size, they fought like demons.
Now, will it be burning tyres or a good old fashioned lynching?
I dare say that I'll now be blackballed by the Barbel Society.
Simon King
Senior Member
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
Personally the only reason I moved to Berkshire is so that I can have "proper" barbel fishing on the Thames, Loddon and Kennet.
And can only say to those fishing the Hants Avon, Severn, Teme, W Avon , Wye etc.................................................................
Can we have our fish back please.
Yes, I'm joking.........
Graham
And can only say to those fishing the Hants Avon, Severn, Teme, W Avon , Wye etc.................................................................
Can we have our fish back please.
Yes, I'm joking.........
Graham
R
Rich Frampton
Guest
I'm going to be fishing your way this season Graham......looking forward to it too.
See you next Saturday.
Rich.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
Rich, fraid I will be washing my hair.
Graham
Graham
R
Rich Frampton
Guest
Oh sorry...I thought you were going to be around.
I'll keep out of your way then if you are.
I'll keep out of your way then if you are.
Damian Kimmins
Senior Member
The ethical point has been raised Simon, as has the one in retort - the BS are not policy makers for the likes of Ray Walton and his fishing, as such why is there such a feeling that any question should be asked when any answer received will have likewise, no bearing on him or his fishing?
I suspect what Ray's endorsing and 'personal sponsorship' amount to is a bit of free bait from a company who've a few adverts at a fishery. It's hardly a statement containing the support of any previous stocking of barbel into a stillwater is it?
An ethical point with a personal overtone?
I suspect what Ray's endorsing and 'personal sponsorship' amount to is a bit of free bait from a company who've a few adverts at a fishery. It's hardly a statement containing the support of any previous stocking of barbel into a stillwater is it?
An ethical point with a personal overtone?
Rick Carnell
Senior Member
I have read this post above a dozen times and I still don't understand it!
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Hi Richard/and even Damian
...With you being a well informed stalwart Barbel Society protector of the BS Constitution/Research and Conservation protocols, you must have known about this all along with other committee members.
Why have you not spoke up about this, seeing as you are anti-stillwater barbel fishing and stocking, just as the BS and BS committee claim to be?
Why has Steve Pope and the Barbel Society Committee not aired their grievances at Dynamite Baits Makins regarding ‘Stillwater Barbel’ as they did when Daiwa were the sponsors?
Steve Pope Quote 1995:
“The letters to Daiwa had a dramatic affect provoking a fierce response from their chairman labeling us as extremists and fanatics who were waging a campaign of postal terrorism.
The press had a field day, but we maintained our position and dignity and it wasn’t too long before Daiwa withdrew their support for the fishery. Whether we had any influence only they know, but the EA’s raid on the fishery must have played some part.”
Steve Pope Quote 2007:
“Some members I have spoken to join the Society simply because they believe we will keep fighting to retain the Close Season on rivers and to keep barbel out of lakes,….”
“My personal view is that these stances are cornerstones of Society policy”.
I am sure you can give Steve a ring and get him to come on BFW to give an explanation to his and the BS involvement regarding this, as it is an important issue for ‘All’ barbel anglers who have been kept in the dark for some reason.
As BS Chairman, Steve should not be selective in only answering posts where he is seen to praise what he and the BS does… for promotional reasons.
Can you Fred or Steve also kindly explain…
What is the Barbel Society ‘stance’ with regard to ‘endorsement of products’?
What is strange is that Steve has had the audacity to do this, and his and BS involvement has been sanctioned by the committee, to which ‘risks’ and ‘throws doubts’ on the Barbel Society’s integrity and reputation in the eyes of the BS membership and ‘All’ barbel anglers in the UK who have not been informed.
Those who fully supported and believed in Steve Pope, the late Mike Burdon and the Barbel Society’s members relentless drive and initiative to promote the ‘Stillwater Barbel Issue’ over the last 15years have now been duped and double crossed by the instigator for personal gain and self promotion.
Best Regards...Ray
http://www.dynamitebaits.com/index.php?id=896
http://www.advancedpolefishing.com/News/page_7/article_106/
http://www.dynamitebaits.com/index.php?id=741
..................................''If we all keep quite........no one will ever know"...............
...With you being a well informed stalwart Barbel Society protector of the BS Constitution/Research and Conservation protocols, you must have known about this all along with other committee members.
Why have you not spoke up about this, seeing as you are anti-stillwater barbel fishing and stocking, just as the BS and BS committee claim to be?
Why has Steve Pope and the Barbel Society Committee not aired their grievances at Dynamite Baits Makins regarding ‘Stillwater Barbel’ as they did when Daiwa were the sponsors?
Steve Pope Quote 1995:
“The letters to Daiwa had a dramatic affect provoking a fierce response from their chairman labeling us as extremists and fanatics who were waging a campaign of postal terrorism.
The press had a field day, but we maintained our position and dignity and it wasn’t too long before Daiwa withdrew their support for the fishery. Whether we had any influence only they know, but the EA’s raid on the fishery must have played some part.”
Steve Pope Quote 2007:
“Some members I have spoken to join the Society simply because they believe we will keep fighting to retain the Close Season on rivers and to keep barbel out of lakes,….”
“My personal view is that these stances are cornerstones of Society policy”.
I am sure you can give Steve a ring and get him to come on BFW to give an explanation to his and the BS involvement regarding this, as it is an important issue for ‘All’ barbel anglers who have been kept in the dark for some reason.
As BS Chairman, Steve should not be selective in only answering posts where he is seen to praise what he and the BS does… for promotional reasons.
Can you Fred or Steve also kindly explain…
What is the Barbel Society ‘stance’ with regard to ‘endorsement of products’?
What is strange is that Steve has had the audacity to do this, and his and BS involvement has been sanctioned by the committee, to which ‘risks’ and ‘throws doubts’ on the Barbel Society’s integrity and reputation in the eyes of the BS membership and ‘All’ barbel anglers in the UK who have not been informed.
Those who fully supported and believed in Steve Pope, the late Mike Burdon and the Barbel Society’s members relentless drive and initiative to promote the ‘Stillwater Barbel Issue’ over the last 15years have now been duped and double crossed by the instigator for personal gain and self promotion.
Best Regards...Ray
http://www.dynamitebaits.com/index.php?id=896
http://www.advancedpolefishing.com/News/page_7/article_106/
http://www.dynamitebaits.com/index.php?id=741
..................................''If we all keep quite........no one will ever know"
...............
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