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In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

There is no way I am suggesting that Carp or any other fish would find Bitrex attractive merely that the bitterness did not deter them from taking a bait they had eaten before.
 
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Howard Cooke said:
I wonder if in considering this point we shouldn't also go back to basics in terms of the way that barbel generally feed. In that sense, it can be more about what they reject rather than what they somehow consciously choose to munch. I know there will be numerous accounts of how barbel will feed off the bottom, show predatory behaviour and even consume whole tins of spam (in one mouthful and without a knife and fork- no manners), but mostly, aren't they burying their snouts in the gravel and weed engulfing various items of riverbed matter and then efficiently rejecting anything that doesn't feel/ taste like food? What process is taking place I wonder that enables them to decide what stays and what goes. It's quite likely that they don't effect a perfect split meaning they sometimes, often even, consume items with no nutritional value (stones?) or reject items that do (typically the ones attached to my hook). Presumably their digestive system deals with the non nutritional items.
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Howard Cooke said:
I was going to post similar on the subject, but you have done a better job, as barbel 'hoover' up everything they can filter out what is not edible or even nourishing or of little value, they would have I think a pretty sophisticated sense that ejects or rejects, and as we all know the reject action is often when we get the hook up. So this alone does not prove that the bait was to the barbels liking merely the rig was doing it's job.

I know of someone who hair rigged a small twig and caught Tench .

But of course this answers nothing, except that once we can get barbel feeding confidently then their guard will be down, and will slip up, it's called Angling.
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Neil,are they sucking up debris ect or are they sifting it and hanging on to soft bodies like worms,maggot, bloodworm ect, water snails aint soft but they,ll crunch up very easily, think about it, if your eating a kipper how many times do you detect that odd bone and fish it out of your mouth, fish aint got fingers but they have very clever mouths, i aint going to try to draw fred into it but think what hes saying is its the quality of the ingredients not the flavour that the fish get to like or in my crude terms a decent bait,
high venison looks and smells like runny sh..t but some folk find the taste adorable, kentucky smells tasty, tastes tasty but do you taste chicken or seasonings and old hot oil?
 
I mentioned that a lot of my barbel have fallen to casters,... what is interesting is that they have in fact,(in recent years) , been caught on rubber artificials, as have many good chub.
 
A few months ago I watched a Koi carp hovering up leaves on the surface of its pond. Each leaf it would suck in, then blow out, but clearly only after having decided it had no food value or simply didn't taste very nice. If any of those leaves were hair-rigged, it would undoubtedly been hooked.

Suspect most fish do the same if something looks like food (hence the success of artificials), but if it tastes good as well, your chances are going to increase substantially.

(I think I have probably just stated the bleedin' obvious, so apologies.)
 
I have seen my koi do the same Steve, ...spotted one swimming around with two long leg's protruding from it's mouth. . turned out to be a large frog. !!
Forgot to mention that the arti's were banana flavoured. :)

t
 
Julian Peacock said:
I was going to contribute more and had started to type a lengthy post in reply to Simon. It seems though that having an opinion is attention seeking, so I will leave it there. Jeff your a ****.
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What a lovely reply. It seems to hammer home my thoughts. Stay classy Julian.
 
John Walker said:
Neil,are they sucking up debris ect or are they sifting it and hanging on to soft bodies like worms,maggot, bloodworm ect, water snails aint soft but they,ll crunch up very easily, think about it, if your eating a kipper how many times do you detect that odd bone and fish it out of your mouth, fish aint got fingers but they have very clever mouths, i aint going to try to draw fred into it but think what hes saying is its the quality of the ingredients not the flavour that the fish get to like or in my crude terms a decent bait,
high venison looks and smells like runny sh..t but some folk find the taste adorable, kentucky smells tasty, tastes tasty but do you taste chicken or seasonings and old hot oil?
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Yep agree, that they pick out edible food and eject other, well that's a given anyway so no point in arguing that, even on here :)

You say say it is the quality of the bait rather than the flavour, well yes I guess you could argue both sides of that one, probably a mixture of the two, but probably for a long term worthwhile bait HNV would be the choice.

I would think that Barbel get drawn to meat as a Special Treat, and for that reason I can see why it is a bite getter..

If I was going to target a particular stretch of River in the hope of bagging a biggie I would go for the HNV approach with regular feeding.
 
For a real insight into the effectiveness of HNV I think Tony Miles book Elite Barbel takes some beating. I expect many on here have read it but the point Tony makes is that HNV baits are superior where there is a very small head of fish as, in his experience, they will actively search out a high quality bait. This obviously gives the angler the edge over one using a bait the barbel will eat just as readily but may not be prepared to go searching for. So if a HNV boilie and a lump of spam roll into the swim at the same time who knows which one the barbel will go for first? But the fact that barbel will search for HNV baits suggests that instinct plays a part. As Dave and Simon suggest, an innate instinct that is probably necessary to every wild creatures survival.
 
Alex Gowney said:
For a real insight into the effectiveness of HNV I think Tony Miles book Elite Barbel takes some beating. I expect many on here have read it but the point Tony makes is that HNV baits are superior where there is a very small head of fish as, in his experience, they will actively search out a high quality bait. This obviously gives the angler the edge over one using a bait the barbel will eat just as readily but may not be prepared to go searching for. So if a HNV boilie and a lump of spam roll into the swim at the same time who knows which one the barbel will go for first? But the fact that barbel will search for HNV baits suggests that instinct plays a part. As Dave and Simon suggest, an innate instinct that is probably necessary to every wild creatures survival.
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Are they consciously seeking out high nutritional baits though or, on such stretches containing a small head (of possibly larger fish?), are they simply searching for food generally and in doing so will pick up on certain food signals present in the bait? I wonder if it's the case that a lack of general/natural food sources is part (there could be many others) of the reason why there is a small head of fish meaning they need to forage more and take what they find. Obviously if what they find is especially yummy then that's a bonus.

An angler fishing such a stretch may then deploy pre-baiting techniques I suppose and to great effect, conditioning the fish to visit key areas when they are foraging. As to whether HNV baits achieve a superior catch rate - I couldn't say because I never conducted a controlled experiment.

I find it impossible to comment on the science behind HNV baits and any superior ability they may posses to attract and catch fish. That said, I do have a lot of confidence in certain boilies and will use them in many instances and sometimes even catch. Would I have caught anyway on a different bait- no idea. However, I have managed to convince myself sufficiently to conclude I wouldnt, which is why I go and buy another kilo. With matching paste. And glug. And similarly flavoured pellets. Armed with that lot, I can't possibly fail.
 
I have no idea whether Barbel or fish in general can tell the difference, one thing that leads me to believe that they cannot is the fact that lots of fish feed on bloodworm which only contain 6 - 8% protein, their Amino Acid profile is also very poor, if fish can tell the difference would they spend time expending energy feeding on a food with such poor returns for them?
 
Graham Young said:
I have no idea whether Barbel or fish in general can tell the difference, one thing that leads me to believe that they cannot is the fact that lots of fish feed on bloodworm which only contain 6 - 8% protein, their Amino Acid profile is also very poor, if fish can tell the difference would they spend time expending energy feeding on a food with such poor returns for them?
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Yes probably, the fact that bloodworm is freely available probably discounts the fact that it is poor nutritionally, I suppose similar to grass and ruminants.
 
Ruminants are designed to eat grass and other foods that are poor in nutrition i.e. they have more than one stomach and continually regurgitate their food to chew it and break it down further, as far as I am aware fish have a very basic digestive system which begs the question, how much of the 6/8% protein are they able to absorb from such a poor food?

One thing is sure that they could not survive on just bloodworm and need other foods, do they know this? not at all sure but if they do recognise what is good for them why don't they recognise what isn't ?
 
I would suggest that the inclusion of feeding stimulants/appetite enhancers are more likely to make a bait more effective from the angler's point of view. Think Kentucky/McDonalds.

If you intend to preoccupy the fish with a certain bait by its repeated introduction, it may benefit the fishes well-being if the bait also has a decent nutritional value.
 
If Barbel can recognise whats good for them ? Perhaps some one could explain what food content is in Hempseed and why they will eat such large amounts of the stuff ?
 
Graham Young said:
Ruminants are designed to eat grass and other foods that are poor in nutrition i.e. they have more than one stomach and continually regurgitate their food to chew it and break it down further, as far as I am aware fish have a very basic digestive system which begs the question, how much of the 6/8% protein are they able to absorb from such a poor food?

One thing is sure that they could not survive on just bloodworm and need other foods, do they know this? not at all sure but if they do recognise what is good for them why don't they recognise what isn't ?
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All true Graham I was just illustrating that even poor in nourishment foods can a have a place if in sufficient quantities, but I say 'poor' perhaps the bloodworm provides other essential elements apart from protein that is important to good health.

Given that blood worm blows all other baits away in matches, I would think that may be true.

However it is just as well we are in the dark as to why fish prefer certain foods to others, but what is certain Barbel are pretty catholic in foods, everything from naturally occurring minnows to bloodworm, I would think what we offer as baits is to akin to a cheeky take away for us on a Friday evening.
 
Hell Graham,
Having just read your post on blood-worms I was surprised that they contain only 6-8% protein and looked it up and you are right.However if the water is removed the protein content is actually over 50% of dried material and also contains a fair number of vitamins and minerals.Water content of foods or baits should be ignored when making comparisons as it has no food value.......Fred
 
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